Seasoned vs. "young & pretty"
There were a few (rather bitter) remarks from some (presumably older) tangueras some time ago, about leaders who'd rather dance with the "young & pretty" women, even though they are less skilled then themselves. They of course attributed that to the male hormones.
That may be the reason in some cases, but from my experience, observations and discussions I've had with other men, it's not the reason in most cases. First, some of my favorite followers are women in their 40s and 50s and I would dance with them any time, no matter how pretty are the alternatives, but I just realized last night, when I go dancing, I will usually either dance with the really good dancers, or with the promising "beginners". In most cases, they are young (hence, pretty I guess). Why would I dance with a beginner over the more seasoned veteran dancer, who, while not great, is certainly better then the beginner?
Because in most cases, they are not good enough and they plateaued many years ago. Which means their dancing is unlikely to get any better, they are certainly not looking to improve, most never ask for feedback, most don't come to practicas. The "young & pretty" have a chance to become dancers I really enjoy dancing with, and by dancing with them I can help them progress in the "right" direction. They ask for feedback, they try to get better, they show up at practicas and they do get better.
A few cases in point.
There is a woman in the community, she is absolutely gorgeous. Young, beautiful, amazing figure, pleasant personality, yet if one pays close attention, very few of the good leaders are dancing with her and even the ones that do, they only do it rarely. Why? Because she has an awkward embrace, she almost never shows up for practicas, and even when she does, she never asks for feedback. As a result, I have not see her improve a bit in the six months or so I've known her.
There is another woman in the community, she just started 3 or 4 months ago. She shows up at nearly every practica, she asks for feedback, she tries to apply what is suggested and she is getting better every week. I have a feeling she will be a hit with the better dancers in Boston and everywhere else.
There is a woman in Montreal, she must be in her 50s, she is a great dancer and I can guarantee you she will dance as much as she wants to, with the best leaders, even if all the contenders in the Miss America pageant would flood the room.
So, if you see that you're being passed for the "young & pretty", chances are you are not as good as you think. You may be more skilled then them, but not skilled enough for the leaders you want to dance with, but since you're not getting any better, there is no incentive for them to dance with you. If you want to change that, go to practicas, go early, ask the better leaders for feedback, pick an area they point out and work at it. Most better leaders will go out of their way to help out someone that shows an interest in getting better.
There was another argument I heard "Some people who love to dance with me at some times, they just ignore me at other times". A good (and smart) dancer will do his or her best to create the appearance that he loves dancing with his/her partner, as that usually makes the partner dance at his/her best. That doesn't necessarily mean they love dancing with you, they just made sure they were trying to get the best experience they could. So once again, the solution for that is to get better.
Now, it's true, when everything else is equal, most people, men included, will go for the "pretty". I imagine most women would rather dance with the handsome dancer rather then the old, fat and bald one, if they are just as good dancers. You just have to become good enough that people love dancing with you or show that you are heading in that direction.
I am sorry if this will hurt some sensitivities, but I'm kind of getting tired of all the men bashing that's becoming so fashionable lately, so I figured it would be useful to hear another perspective.
21 comments:
Hi Sorin,
I agree with you--and with a lot of what you are saying--with a few of caveats:
First, I think the view you express is the view of the *good* dancers. A really good dancer, as you also pointed out in your post about the NYC Tango Festival, goes for the quality of the dance at all costs... and hence looks don't matter. But there are a lot of so-so leaders--let's call them mediocre/acceptable/whateverish--who don't have this high bar in their minds. Many of them still go for young/pretty/new/will take my lessons on the floor, etcetera. It's sad, and there are varying degrees of this, but there the problem becomes very obvious. Many of the ladies who feel that they are being overlooked may not be hoping to dance with the teachers, or the Hot Shots-but they still find themselves waiting behind girls who may not be that good but just look nicer. May be a fact of life, but it's true.
Second, there is an issue of information, particularly in Festivals and large communities. You and I, and many in the US tango communities know that there are tight cliques. Some, extremely tight--you basically get in based on a "recommendation": your teacher likes you, because he thinks you are promissing or whatever, he dances with you at milongas, introduces you to people, and then you get into the clique and your merry way... Because once in, you are fine and, I'd argue, your learning curve at that very moment speeds up considerably, because dancing with the best dancers just gives you a much better opportunity of getting good feedback early, and a wealth of information that people not in the clique often don’t have. It's like a "two equilibria situation": a woman (or a man, for that matter) may have good potential, but if she is unlucky enough to be overlooked by good leaders from early on and has to spend most of her time with poor leaders, her dancing is likely to deteriorate or, at least, stagnate. The older the woman, she'll have to try even harder. And I find it disingenous to believe that there are so many amazing leaders that will want to spend the minutes of their practicas with them. I have seen happening, yes, but not as often as I'd like, unfortunately.
And don't get me wrong--I don't mean to be unfair: I realize that there are many good leaders who are kind and give people opportunities. All I’m arguing is, "starting conditions" may actually make it much harder for someone to get better; it's not all laziness, as you suggest. And yes, I hope to believe that hard work can overcome obstacles--I'm a hard worker myself--but I also believe it's fair to recognize that it will be easier for a younger/prettier woman to improve, not only because that's the reality of the human body, but also because of the access to information/practice she'll encounter in her way.
la tanguera is absolutely right. By assuming that a younger lady is more 'teachable' - and perhpas giving her entree to the clique - you are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. There are plenty of not-so-young ladies who want to learn and improve, but many leaders won't give them a chance because they're too busy trying to impress the hot young things. Thus the older ladies sit out more, or have to dance more with less skilled leaders.
>By assuming that a younger lady is more 'teachable'
You have not read my post with enough attention. I am not assuming they are more "teachables", I am saying that some tangueras who have been dancing for a while STOP asking for feedback and stop coming to practicas. Hence they can't learn because they don't try.
Obviously that is not true for all seasoned tangueras. Some are still practicing and asking for feedback, and they are usually the ones getting all the dances they want.
> There are plenty of not-so-young ladies who want to learn and improve, but many leaders won't give them a chance because they're too busy trying to impress the hot young things.
Also my post was not about older vs. young beginners. As it happens everywhere in life, young(er) is preferred over old(er) when everything else is the same.
Hi Sorin,
I want to question the assumption in your post.
You said "by dancing with them I can help them progress in the "right" direction".
Why would you consider that your role? A milonga is not a lesson or practica and most followers hate being taught on the dance floor. I do want to keep learning and improving - but a social dance setting is not the place for it.
And even if some of your your dance partners have hit a plateau, so what? You can have a beautiful experience with them regardless. Isn't it supposed to be about connecting with your partner, feeling and expressing the music? It's not a competition to see how many complicated figures you can teach someone.
Dear "Anonymous"
I am NEVER teaching on the dance floor at a milonga. Not with words anyway. By dancing with dancers showing promise, I can contribute to their development by concentrating to what I believe important, like the music, connection, dynamic changes (in sharp contrast to the idiots insisting to lead a beginner through as many volcadas, colgadas and other "adas" as they can fit in the space of a tanda). I can have them experience how it feels to dance with someone that doesn't "drive" them like a mack truck, that moves to the music.
If you knew me or if you read my blog, you'd know I'm not about figures.
>And even if some of your your dance partners have hit a plateau, so what? You can have a beautiful experience with them regardless.
Well, it depends where they plateaued, isn't it? The ones I have in mind, they have rigid & stiff embraces, poor balance, inability to follow through a step (i.e. they will anticipate the lead in any which way possible) and they've been dancing the same since the first time I danced with them. I'm sorry to say, I cannot have a beautiful experience with them.
Please re-read my post though, it is addressed to the "seasoned" dancers. The ones that have been dancing for a while and the ones that feel passed up for the "young & pretty". They are usually consider themselves good dancers and they blame leaders overactive hormones for being passed up for the younger, more inexperienced ones. They are usually the ones never coming to a practica and even if they do, never asking for feedback. The gist of my message was that they might not be as good as they think they are, and if they are being passed up, they should consider asking for feedback and working on their shortcomings.
Dear "La Tanguera"
All right, I understand now. If we're talking about the average/mediocre/acceptable leaders, then yes, I would expect them to go after the young & pretty. Most men, myself included, started tango to meet women. Some develop a love for the dance, and they will learn to appreciate the skill over beauty. Some never do, they just learn the minimum required to be somewhat competent and they go to a milonga for the sole benefit of holding a woman in their arms. I would expect them to go for the pretty ones.
"All I’m arguing is, "starting conditions" may actually make it much harder for someone to get better; it's not all laziness, as you suggest."
I didn't mean to suggest that is was all laziness. My post was titled "Seasoned vs young & pretty" and was directed toward the dancers with experience who feel passed for the beginners. Not "older beginner vs. young & pretty beginner". In this scenario, I'm afraid you are correct, the young will get more chances.
Sorin, you make some great points here and clearly this applies to both sides of the embrace.
There are the followers who will not improve because (as you point out) they have chosen not to through whatever means - failing to practice etc.
There are the leaders who only want to know enough to dance with the babes.
What I find intriguing is that some followers complain about not getting a chance to dance with the one dimensional leaders, who (in their opinion) only dance with the babes.
It's unfortunate that these two groups repel rather than attract, thus leaving the rest of us who want to learn and don't care so much about anatomical appearance to dance together.
In tango as in life, you make your own luck. People who sit back and stew, complain, whatever, will get back what they put in...
Hi Sorin!
Indeed, and agreed, thanks for clarifying. We are really saying the same thing. Probably to make our point clearer, we've skipped the nuances, and emphasized different angles.
Tanguera
Your post has a good point that more then years of dancing an interest in learning and improving invites dances.
I am a new dancer with about 11 months of experience. Often dancing with the seasoned, who have many more years experience is not much fun. It is clear that they are not into it. Some even look around in the room and completely miss the lead. However, most fresh beginners are so happy to find someone to dance with. They are excited to try something new. Sure, they don't know a lot and make mistakes. Though, who cares as long as you are having a good time.
So, I have had a lot of fun with women, who had only 2 classes. And, I have been wanting to get away from women with years and years of experience.
The one exception was one woman, who danced awesome and always seemed to enjoy the dance with me as well. She was always on my mind to ask her for a dance, when she showed up to Practica or Milonga.
Thomas, that's an interesting comment. I can't imagine why the experienced dancers are acting bored. The seasoned dancers in my area definitely don't look bored at all, they look like they are having fun. Maybe try a different venue?
As for Sorin's original post, it sounds like some leaders will dance with a follower only if she has the potential to be
a. a girlfriend or
b. a protege
Neither of those criteria have anything to do with dancing and everything to do with the leader's own personal needs for love or ego gratification. Totally obscures the point of dancing tango to connect with another person, just as a fellow human being instead of a suitor or teacher.
Well, if more seasoned dancers are acting bored to dance with you, then they are either not very good dancers or not very good people. I try to dance with beginners and beginner intermediates and I usually am able to enjoy myself on some level or for some moments in the dance. Which is good enough for me and as long as they continue to improve, I will continue to dance with them and continue to find more enjoyment in doing so.
Jenny - I don't see at all how Sorin is saying that leaders dance with women based on girlfriend possibilities or as proteges.... in fact he rather states the opposite. That men, he included, dance with women based on skill level and improvement.
I think it is the same on both sides. If a leader does not improve and/or degrades, I stop dancing with him, especially if he is resistant to feedback in practicas. But if he continues to progress and enjoys the dance, then I will always accept his dances.
Thomas - find some more agreeable advanced followers.... if they are acting bored, then they are not worth dancing with. And make sure that when you dance with them in practicas you are asking for feedback on your lead, this gives them a vested interest in you.
Jenny - where did you read that??? Sabine says it well, Sorin did not write anything close to saying leaders dance with women whom they want as girlfriends or proteges.
Good post Sorin. Here's hoping it clears up some assumptions from both leaders and followers as to why some are getting dances more often than they.
sabine/alexander:
If I understand the post correctly, it said that some leaders will give preference to dancing with a woman who is either a) "teachable" and will improve under his tutelage or b) attractive. So yeah, that pretty well translates to 'protege' or 'girlfriend protential' in simpler language.
I disagree with the fundamental assumption of wanting to dance only with those who continually show improvement. I am not a dance teacher, so frankly, it's not my call to decide whether someone is showing improvement nor to determine, what, or how, they should be taught. I leave that to the professionals.
At a social dance, the point is simply to dance, not to be judged. What does it matter whether your partner is better this week than he/she was last week? As long as they are pleasant and reasonably competent, the experience is enjoyable. Obviously if someone steps on your feet or is a lead weight, that's a different matter anyway and it's understandable to avoid dancing with them.
> If I understand the post correctly, it said that some leaders will give preference to
Clearly there is a problem right there. It seems to me you didn't actually read the post, but rather skim it.
For the sake of clarity, I will try to re-state what I wrote in a much shorter and hopefully more clear fashion.
Some men dance tango and choose their partners based on their beauty and naivety. I have yet to see one that is actually a good dancer. Don't dance with them.
Most leaders, the ones who are interested in dancing, will dance with either :
a) people they enjoy dancing with
b) people with whom they might not enjoy dancing with now, but since they are improving, they might enjoy dancing with them later.
"As long as they are pleasant and reasonably competent, the experience is enjoyable."
True, the problem is that "reasonably competent" is a relative term. What is reasonably competent for someone, is fabulous for somebody else and incompetent for someone else.
"I disagree with the fundamental assumption of wanting to dance only with those who continually show improvement."
And it's your right to have your opinion. But once again, you didn't quite got the gist of what I wrote. If a person level of dance is at a level where I enjoy dancing with them, I will, whether they improve or not. I will also dance with people I might don't enjoy dancing with right now (because of their poor technique, musicality, embrace, etc) if I see they (are actively trying to) improve, because if they are improving, they will hopefully get at a level where I enjoy dancing with them.
To clarify my statement in regards to "helping them get better", I was NOT talking about teaching them anything at a milonga. I help them by dancing with them, by leading the kind of moves I consider important for their development, by holding them in a proper embrace so they can see how an embrace should feel, etc. I will provide feedback at a practica, and work with people on the things they need to work on.
Thanks Sorin -
I appreciate the response and now I understand you much better, since you made some points that were not made before.
I did, in fact, read your post very carefully, along with all the comments. My comments were not directed at you personally but at the statements about leaders as a collective group.
Personally, I think everything matters: looks, skills, age, weight, height, smell, behavior... I am a leader, and I am attracted to dance with the follower that seems most compatible with me. This is a cumulative average of how compatible our bodies are, of how compatible our tastes are: for the music, for the dance style, for perfume, for embrace. Behavior matters the most to me... As an example, I am kind of a reserved person, so I would be tempted to avoid the superstar followers in the room, just because I like a more original, and probably less popular, temperament... But I perfectly understand why the young and pretty are usually the unexpected superstars...
And for young, good looking men, this is just as true as for girls! The problem is, that now, in north America, I think the ratio of young and pretty men vs women must be 1 for 10. Whenever I see a good looking guy at a milonga, even if he's just a beginner (there's a 19 year old superstar like that here in Montreal) with much to learn, all the women are crazy about dancing with him...
Isn't it more honest to go and ask for a dance the person you're attracted to ? It is hormonal, it is unfair, but it's natural. Once you realize that the girl is really bad and you're not having any fun, then you'll change your attraction for someone else. So if a new very sexy girl enters the room, and you're attracted to her, then go ask her for a dance.. After a few tandas, the initial excitement will be gone, and there's only 2 outcomes: it's gonna get only more and more boring, or she's really good, in which case, she's just won her place fair and square.
anonymous - I think we'd all like to dance with attractive people, we're only human. But I'm not sure I understand how it's more 'honest' to dance with someone you're physically attracted to.
I would understand that rationale perfectly at a regular club or singles bar, but not at a milonga. My point is that you can have a very enjoyable dance with someone you're not attracted to (or someone who is unavailable) - if you are willing to give them a chance. Yes, tango can be sexy but you can also dance with someone and just express simple warmth and friendship along with enjoyment of the music. What's wrong with that?
As a young dancer (24 years old), i actually will avoid dancing with woman that are a lot older than I, whether they are really good or not.
This is so much related to this article that it's funny:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7117498.stm
Here is my experience. I am a leader. I suspect followers may think the same. People choose their partners based mainly on 3 factors:
1. Physical attraction: the look, body proportion, smell, height, build, physical compatibility...
2. Personality: friendly, humorous, care for others...
3. Tango skills: techniques, connection, musicality, floor craft...
Each individual has different weighting (profile) among these 3 factors. Some prefer partners based on physical attaction more then the personality and dance skills, while others prefer partners based more on the dance skills.
As for me, I won't dance with an attactive partner anymore if having tried it and found really uncomfortable to dance with. If an attactive partner with good tango skill, but not friendly with me, I won't dance with her either.
Who I choose at any particular moment depends on the opportunities available. Other things being equal and there are 2 choices, I will choose the one either more attactive, better tango skills or more friendly. This is common sense.
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